March 30, 2022

Negotiating Tactics that Actually Work

Negotiating Tactics that Actually Work

How to increase your income by 40-60%.

Today, we're digging into negotiation tips that actually work—no perfecting crafty word play, performing mental jujitsu on a recruiter, or documenting months of "wins" required.

Since I'm not a negotiation expert (just a gal who enjoys negotiating), I brought in two guests today: Miranda Martin, a CEO Coach who speaks to money mindset, and a dear friend of mine, Career Coach Darci Smith, who speaks to compensation research and recruiter relations.

Here's the blog post that complements this piece—it's all about how I increased my income.


Full episode transcript below


Katie: Welcome back rich girls and guys to the Money with Katie Show. Today we're going to talk about something fun. Negotiating for more money.

Katie: Everything that we're going to talk about today is stuff that I have actually used to increase my own salary by between 40% to 60% at a time. This might be a little bit of a long one because we're really going to jam it packed with value, but we're going to talk about the most important aspect of going into a negotiation in your current company. The pretty much foolproof approach, in my mind. How to secure a second offer by leveraging LinkedIn effectively, the proper way to do compensation research and even a little bit of an unusual take on what to say when they ask you what your compensation expectations are. Yeah. We probably could have made this into two episodes, but I want you to have everything you need in one place. And if you haven't caught Monday's blog post yet, which is going to dive deeper into my personal story, check that out too.

Katie: Okay. Let's do it. Every time I read something about negotiating compensation, one of the major takeaways is that everything is negotiable. And normally what the author means is that if your corporate daddy is not willing to sacrifice on your base pay, that you can negotiate more time off or like your bonus or whatever, but I've never found that type of advice to be super helpful because a few extra days off would be great and all, but usually I want more money. I can't invest my PTO in a Roth IRA, unless I quit and cash out, which is a viable strategy, but involves not using any of your PTO. So suboptimal in my mind. Besides, since I've always worked for big companies with huge compliance departments that standardize everything and basically won't budge on a lot of that type of stuff.

Katie: And at levels in the organization that are low enough where negotiating those types of extras, usually readily isn't on the table at all. It felt like it was more trouble than it was worth to spend negotiation time beating those drums. Of course, if you are negotiating as a director or a vice president or some other high level position where you have a intricate compensation package that comprises a lot of different components, you may have better luck. But I personally have never found that those things are very malleable at the three Fortune 100 companies I have worked for, but hey, if you think it would fly where you work, go for it. It's just never panned out for me. So it's not going to be a part of this episode. My intention in this episode is to share with you the things that have worked for me, and we're not going to waste time on shit that you hopefully already know like, oh, double check your resume for typos and apply for jobs that are remotely in the ballpark on the planet of what you are qualified to do.

Katie: And yes, I agree generally with the advice that you should track your wins at work and measure them where possible. So you can unfurl your scroll of badassery when it's time to talk about promotions. If you are saving the company money or earning the company more, the negotiation should probably go in your favor. The issue with that advice that I have found when trying to enact it is that the company usually already expects you to earn the money or save the money in some capacity. So unless you're adding seven figures in revenue and getting paid $50,000 per year, and you can prove both of those things, you actually might have a hard time justifying a value add in that way, retroactively. So this is hopefully all stuff that you've heard before. And when it works, it works. I'm not a negotiation expert or a career coach.

Katie: I am just a regular ass money loving person who has managed to have some success with getting people to pay me more. And that's why I am bringing in two guests today. The first guest that you'll hear from is career coach Darci. I wanted to take her up on the straight up, no BS negotiation tricks that I knew that she could teach us, that we need to know. And the second is Miranda Martin. She is a finance coach that works with CEOs and entrepreneurs to scale their businesses and has a focus on things like money mindset around income. So I'm excited for you to hear her perspective as well. Now, before we dive into the negotiation-specific stuff that has worked for me, I think we should take a beat to discuss something that I usually do not hear very often when this topic comes up. And that's that negotiation tactics matter, for sure, but they are not the most important thing when you are negotiating on the inside of your current company.

Katie: To be honest, in my experience, the most important thing is having an engaged network of advocates inside. So how do you do that? You be an engaged employee and you go out of your way to build those relationships before you ever come to a negotiation table. When I say an engaged network of advocates, I'm talking about other more senior employees, ideally, including your manager at the company who know you and are willing to go to bat for you. Because women do make less than men, the wage gap is smaller than it used to be but even when you control for factors like level of education, years of experience, and even dishearteningly some apples to apples comparisons within the same company, it is still observed. That doesn't mean you can't outearn a man. It just means that unfortunately, we are going to have to overperform as women in order to do that and negotiate hard on our own behalf.

Katie: I don't make the rules. And I think it's all super messed up, but I think it's good to know what you're up against, especially when it comes to things like negotiating compensation, that asking for more is almost always expected. But this specific piece of advice about this engaged network, it's less about the negotiation itself and more about laying strong groundwork for yourself over time. It's about how you do your job when you are not negotiating, that typically is going to impact that negotiation the most. Everything that you do communicates, if your camera is always off in meetings where everyone else has their camera on, that communicates. If you are consistently late or you are reactive when things don't go your way, that's going to communicate. It doesn't mean that you have to be on email on Saturday mornings or doing the best work of anybody in the office.

Katie: But I honestly think it's surprising how going the extra foot, not even the extra mile makes a difference in other people's perception and trust. This is a little bit harder when you're working from home because you lose the spontaneity of those hallway run-ins, bathroom run-ins, cubicle drive-bys, Lord saved me now, but setting up a 20 minute check-in with people and generally doing what you're supposed to do has a way of building a reputation around you. Same goes for taking feedback graciously and honestly even asking for it in the first place. The bottom line is that you can be the best negotiator in the world, but if you're not a good employee, you won't be successful. So much of the negotiation happens before you even come to the table, making yourself indispensable is the best way to guarantee that you will get more money to stay.

Katie: All right. So now that that's out of the way, let's talk about tactics. Of the four major negotiations that I've engaged in, I have one biggest takeaway that I want to explore first, because I think it is the negotiation tip to end all other negotiation tips. And that is the person who cares less wins. I think I first read this quote from a think boy on Twitter, but after being in a pretty serious negotiation that ended up netting the outcome I wanted, I think it's true. If you enter into a negotiation willing to walk away, if you don't get what you want, you suddenly have all of the leverage. Now that is easier said than done as most people care about maintaining their employment, right? But operating from a position of, I don't need this, shifts the perception of power and negotiation to your side. That doesn't necessarily mean that you would actually walk away if you didn't get exactly what you want, but being willing to increases the chances that you will get what you want.

Katie: It also does not mean that you're going to approach this negotiation with a flippant or a careless attitude. It just means that the person who's operating with optionality on their side automatically has more power in a negotiation. So how do you put yourself in that position authentically? It's actually pretty simple. You just have a better offer. This line of strategy works best if you're negotiating with a company you've already been employed by, because it gives you the time to get your ducks in a row before you come to the negotiation table versus if you're trying to negotiate with someone who's just now offered you a job. In which case we will get to that later. Whether better offer comes from another company, from your own business, this is why we like to diversify where we have income from, or a different team inside your current company.

Katie: You immediately level up your negotiating position when you can share in the spirit of transparency that you are weighing your current role and opportunity against another opportunity or path that you could take. There are plenty of Jedi mind tricks that you can learn from negotiation experts. And we will absolutely explore some of the ones that I've used shortly, but this has been the ultimate cheat code in my life. It cuts out all of the verbal gymnastics, all of the careful scripting, all of the wind documenting and it boils it down to a very simple, very primal truth. I can walk away if I don't get what I want. It doesn't get much simpler than that. That essentially forces the other person to offer you the most that they possibly can for what you are worth to them.

Katie: And if it's not enough to be worth your while, you have a decision to make, you stay where you are or you walk and you take your better offer. There is another upside to employing this strategy and it's that it helps you explore the job market and understand your market rate. And as of right now in March 2022, while we're recording this episode, the job market is hot because of increased competition for workers following the pandemic. So let's talk briefly about getting another offer and increasing your marketability. Securing another job really does just come down to a few things and I'll state the obvious first. Yes, any other better offer will do, but you will get the most juice for the squeeze here if it's a job offer that you are actually excited about. Apply to companies in your field, that you would be excited to work for.

Katie: It's going to totally change the dynamic and energy of the conversation if you are coming with an offer that you'd actually be excited to take on the other hand versus something where you'd be like, ah, I don't know. Like, I don't really actually think I would take this job. So how do you go about the application process? Well, in my limited experience, there are a few best practices that have helped me land great gigs. The first sounds obvious, leverage LinkedIn, you do not have to start posting LinkedIn humble brag monologues, or cause playing a VC, but making sure that your LinkedIn profile is optimized will work wonders. And this usually means that you're describing your position on the profile in such a way that it'll be a search result for the types of jobs you want. So if you need to massage the verbiage of your current role a little bit, do it, they don't always translate company to company.

Katie: And you want LinkedIn SEO on your side when recruiters are hunting for new people. For example, if you are currently a brand copywriter at your company, but you are hoping to land a content writer position else, call yourself a content writer. You're not lying. You still write content for your job, but you're molding your experience to better fit the types of jobs you're looking for using the words that they are going to search with. So personal anecdote for me, I was a brand copywriter at Southwest Airlines when I started working there and I eventually ended up doing mostly UX writing and training under our principle UX designer. My official title at the company though, was associate manager of customer strategy. What the fuck does that even mean? Nobody knows what that is. I wanted to be a UX writer. So I called myself a UX writer on LinkedIn.

Katie: I had the portfolio pieces and experience to back it up, but I would've looked qualified for the absolute wrong types of jobs if I had called myself what my company was calling me. Calling myself a UX writer got me hired at Dell, which added another feather in my resume cap. And I began getting recruiter messages from Facebook, JPMorgan Chase and PayPal for UX writing jobs. All because my LinkedIn profile was crafted to be a magnet for those types of positions. The second thing that is a little bit harder to swallow, but equally important is cast a wide net and embrace rejection. Back in the summer of 2020, I was applying for jobs like I was unemployed despite being very much employed, thank goodness, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that I applied to 50 jobs over the course of a month.

Katie: And remember how I was leveraging LinkedIn? I used the jobs feature to find and apply for roles and it became my little employment hub. Any company that excited me got an application. Spotify, yeah. Pinterest, check. Google, yes. They got a lot of applications, none that they ever responded to but I went application crazy and I got mostly flat out rejections and ghosted. I ended up in lengthy interview processes at NerdWallet and PayPal, and eventually ended up getting an offer for a contractor role from Dell and then later a full-time role from Facebook. The point is, you are going to get told no a lot, but it doesn't matter. You only need one yes to have another offer in hand that you can leverage. And if it's less than you make now, maybe your current market rate is actually lower than you think for your level of experience or maybe your current employer is actually pretty good.

Katie: And that is also worthwhile information to know. Now, obviously if you're casting a super wide net, you can't mold your profile to fit every single application. But it would be worth your time to pick 5 to 10 job postings that appeal to you, open them on separate tabs and then look for the common phrasing or experience requirements and make sure that you're using that same type of language that's coming up frequently in your own profile. Practically, every single job I've ever gotten, or had a prayer of getting had nothing to do with who I knew or what I applied for. It happened because something on my profile showed up in a recruiter's search and actually upon further reflection, I've literally never gotten a job because I knew someone at the company. Every single time, it's either been blind application that went into the cyber pile or recruiter reaching out because they saw my LinkedIn profile.

Katie: I really think the whole referral like, who you know thing is overblown. I have also had inside referrals at companies and not even gotten a call for an interview. So it may not really be the golden ticket you think it is. I wouldn't get too hung up on not knowing anybody or not having a referral. But if you are listening to a podcast about negotiation, you've probably already got your job offer. Great. So we've hit the high points on how to get another offer that you can leverage in a negotiation with your current employer. What if you are negotiating with a new company that's offering you a job? Okay. So the theme music is playing and I just asked you an enticing question so how about we take a quick break and we tackle that when we get back?

Katie: All right. So before the break, I asked the question, what if there's a new job on the horizon for you that you're negotiating for? For starters, it is unlikely the number that they are coming at you with is the top. In fact, I would venture a guess that it is nowhere near the top unless for some reason you are taking a role that you are super overqualified for. All that to say, they are almost definitely giving themselves breathing room because they are expecting you to negotiate with them. And when you're in that position, there are a few things that you can count towards your old compensation that can help you juice it a little bit and give you some leverage. For example, your old 401(k) match, if you had one. Add that to your existing total compensation, your old bonuses or any profit sharing and any other benefits that had monetary value. Stack that shit on top of each other.

Katie: If your base pay at your old employer was $60,000, but they gave you a $4,000 match, a $1,000 bonus, a $500 stipend, your old compensation wasn't $60,000. In your mind, think about it like it was $65,500. That way, if your new offer comes in from another company and they're out the gate at $72,000, you can literally say and mean it honestly, thank you so much for the offer. I'm so excited about this opportunity. I'm really grateful for it. In full transparency, it's not quite competitive with what I'm earning right now in my current role. And in order to feel incentivized to make this type of change, I would like to see an increase from my current compensation is $75,000 doable? The chances that they're going to say yes are pretty good. And it's likely if you have other bargaining chips like being overqualified or leaving your current company before a bonus hits, that you could get even more.

Katie: But in that one totally reasonable request, you may have just increased your base pay from $60,000 to $75,000. It's only $3,000 more for them, a blip, but it's a meaningful increase for you. Just make sure that you are actually happy with the number that are proposing, because if they say yes, it's likely that the negotiation is going to end there. You can't exactly come back later and say, all right, cool, so what about $78,000? As long as you have a seemingly reasonable request or justification for why you're asking for more and it can literally be based on a padded version of your existing compensation, it's likely to get approved. The reality though, is that in this job market, you are probably already going to get offered quite a bit more than what your current employer is paying you. So this trick really only works if you can juice your current comp enough to give yourself a reasonable springboard that you could back up, if someone really pressed you on it.

Katie: I have used this tactic, I think three times, and it has worked every time. So if for some reason it doesn't work, you can leverage a bonus or some other reward from your work that you are forgoing in the job switch to get a one-time signing bonus. For example, if your current employer does a cash bonus or profit sharing of $5,000 per year, and you've been offered a new job a couple months before that's scheduled to hit, you can use that lost bonus as a bargaining ship. You say, I'm so excited about this opportunity, but I'm about to receive a bonus at work and since I've earned it, in principle I would really love to receive it. Would you be open to matching it in a signing bonus? And by the way, these scripts aren't gospel, but I hope that they illustrate the point and the tone.

Katie: So what about research using Glassdoor or other sites that share salary data? There's another one that's specific to tech called Honestly, I think this is good in theory, but it's never been super useful for me in the negotiation because I can't tell them why I'm asking for more. If I said, well, Glassdoor says the average salary for this job is $82,000, not $75,000. It's like, cool. Unless you have a really masterful way of leveraging that information, it's probably not going to be all that helpful to you. The way I can see it helping is if you use it as the guidepost for what you try to talk them up to for an unrelated reason, for example, you make $60,000 and we patted it, we got you up to $65,500 let's round up say $66,000, they offer you $72,000 but you see $85,000 on Glassdoor.

Katie: There is a chance that it's higher on Glassdoor because those inputting the self-reported data have more experience, but that's neither here nor there. You still want to ask for what you think you can feasibly get, right? So if you have $85K in your head as the average or the ceiling, you really just have to come up with a reason to inch closer to that. And you've heard my go-to tactic, but unless you are obviously overqualified or have an extenuating circumstance you can wield, it may be difficult to play the, I'm just worth more card until you're actually inside and can justify said value. This was one area where I did want to get the professional opinion outside of my experience with this type of thing.

Darci Smith: Hi, my name is Darci and I am a career coach.

Katie: Darci, welcome to the Money with Katie Show. Thank you so much for agreeing to be here with us today.

Darci Smith: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Katie: So I'm going to hit you with a bunch of the real ask negotiation questions that I have, now that I have been through this process a bunch of times. And the first is, everyone says that you should do your research about a role and what it pays. What does that actually mean? Can you break down step by step what a proper research session for compensation should look like? What types of things should somebody be doing?

Darci Smith: Yeah. I'm going to give you a three step process, because I love having like 1, 2, 3, ready to go. So we're going to start with number one is, doing your research online. Everyone says, go online, do your research. What does that even mean? Where do I go? How do I find this? So our number one is Glassdoor, right? People talk about this. It's not 100% accurate so don't look at this like it's the number one thing, but it is good to do your research. So go to Glassdoor, go to LinkedIn, look up what other people are doing in that similar role. One other thing that I think a lot of people don't do, and this is part of your online research is go to other companies that have that exact same role that you're applying to and look and see if they have ranges set on those job descriptions, that's going to help you a lot.

Darci Smith: And then number two is, base your research off where you're currently at because at the end of the day, you want to be making more than you're currently making, right? So let's use that as a bar of this is where I want to be. This is where I'm currently at. I'm going to make sure that I'm negotiating based on what I want and need. And don't let those outside forces bother you. And number three is, writing down exactly what you're going to say and being prepared for that negotiation. Because at the end of the day, if you are walking into that saying, I know I want more money than I'm making now. And they ask you that and you are not prepared to give them a number or feel confident in what you're saying, and you haven't written that down and practiced it, you're going to fumble that. So those are the three steps in making sure that you prepare for that negotiation.

Katie: Okay. And I want to dig a little bit deeper on one that you said, which was go look up other people on LinkedIn that have this job and what they're doing. What do you mean by that?

Darci Smith: Yeah. So if you look up other people and the title is similar to what you're going to apply to, you can see if you click on the LinkedIn, there's like little levels based on that job of what people are currently making in that role. So go to the person that has that job, click on the actual company that they're working at and then see what those ranges are. And a really important thing is making sure it's in your similar area. Someone in Los Angeles, California is going to be a lot different than Casper, Wyoming. So make sure you also look at location.

Katie: I love how obscure that second reference was. Casper, Wyoming. I'm like, oh damn, she's really... I was thinking it's something like Idaho, anyway.

Darci Smith: I had to make sure there was a real clear A to B reference there.

Katie: So, okay. What if you know what something should be based on or you think you know what something should be based on what you saw on a site like Glassdoor and you said already, hey, this isn't always accurate. The level of trust that we put in that information, let's say you see something that says $85,000 is what this company's paying for this job. And you get an offer that's a lot lower than that. How do you politely and strategically come back from that without being like, well, I saw in Glassdoor that this job pays $85K? Or maybe that is what you say. I have no idea, but I'm curious.

Darci Smith: No, no, no, definitely not what you say. And my first question to someone that's going through this is going to be, did you decide on what you wanted or you just basing it off of what you saw? Because there's outside factors here and you get all these information from online resources or from your family and friends saying you should be making more money. Like, I'm sorry, if I'm happy making $50,000, please don't tell me I need to be making more, right? I'm okay. So if you walk into that and you see somewhere online that it was paying $85,000 but you're currently making $45,000 let's just be freaking honest here, that's not realistic. So I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's not realistic. Don't be disappointed when they come back at you with $65,000, $70,000. And you're thinking, at the end of the day, if you're still getting an increase and you're happy with it, that's all that matters.

Darci Smith: I'm sorry, this is a rant for me, because I'm sick of people having opinions on what other people are making or what they're doing. And I'm a firm believer. And if you are happy and you want to be making X amount, go into that. And so what if they would've gone higher? You can't live your life like that. You can't just assume like, oh my gosh, what if I didn't get every single money grab I could have? No, but at the end of the day, are you happy with this negotiation? Did you come out of it with a win?

Darci Smith: So if that does happen to you, I would go back with a more strategic answer of like based on the research that I've done online. I've noticed that this position in this location, and you can reference Glassdoor if you want to, or you could just say online or like through LinkedIn, through friends. That's the other thing you got to talk to people that are in the role, you can say, hey, I noticed this position should be paying somewhere closer to $85,000 and then ask the question like, does that sound fair to you? Or can you please let me know why the offer is at $45,000? Because if it's that big of a discrepancy, there needs to be a question.

Katie: Absolutely. Yeah. And I know that sometimes people that submit things on Glassdoor, it's all self-reported, right? So there's not necessarily that backed up to double check that something is accurate and maybe somebody came in and got a higher offer because they had way more experience, or because they were bringing some unique thing to the table, or that when they got hired, that company really needed somebody with their specific skillset. You don't know.

Katie: So I was really curious how you navigate that because in my own situations where I have seen things on the internet about what a job should pay, that number, it's almost like I anchor to it as if that's definitely what it should be. But I think it's just more helpful to give you a ballpark or a range. And ultimately if you do feel like you're getting paid market rate and you're getting more than you were before, that is a win. So I like that you called it, am I getting every cash grab that I've ever... No, but that's okay. That's not necessarily what it's all about.

Darci Smith: Right.

Katie: So anything else that you want to leave our listeners with on this topic?

Darci Smith: Yeah, I think because this is the question I get asked the most is, do I as the interviewee say a number first? You'll get asked a question of how much do you want? What type of salary are you looking for? I might be a little bit different than most people here, but I want you to feel confident in the number that you're asking for. If you say-

Katie: Darci, I said the same thing in this episode. We're so on the same page, I love it. Okay. Continue. See everybody? My advice was correct.

Darci Smith: We don't have to edit this out then. Yes. So your advice is obviously correct. So you want to say what you want and that goes back to at the end of the day, you just are happy with what you decide you're asking for. When I interviewed someone, the second they're like, oh, I'm just more worried about the job and the, I don't know what I want. I would write them off. I don't like that you're not confident in wanting a number and feeling confident asking for the money that you want. And look, if you give a range, if you're saying I'm looking between $40,000 and $50,000, just remember they're going to give you $40,000. So that's what I want to leave people with. If you're going to give a range, basically I want your bottom number to be something that you want. So you want $80,000, say I'm looking for a range $80,000 to $90,000.

Katie: I love this. I feel so vindicated in my opinion now, because I always see people say, don't tell them a number. Don't say it. I'm like, why wouldn't you? In my experience, the only time where I've said a number and they've been like, sorry, the cap is a lot lower than that. I'm like, great, I'm glad that we didn't waste each other's time. Have a good day. As long as you're giving something, you'd be thrilled with, it's not going to come back and bite you in the butt. Because what? Worst case scenario, you get the number you actually wanted and you left a little bit of money on the table? The downside is very large here.

Darci Smith: Yeah. And I have seen companies resend offers, if you negotiate too high. I had someone recently that they went $20K above what they got and they said, nevermind, we're going to go a different way, but you have to know that and be okay with that. And that's why I advise people, for lack of a better term, if you're desperate and you need a role and you're going to take that knowing that you're not going to get paid your worth, that's perfectly fine. But you better know that. And in that case, maybe don't give a number. But what we're talking about is, you know what you want, you're willing to walk away from it. Be confident in that number and stand your ground because you are worth it.

Katie: Preach girl. Thank you, Darci. So where can people find you if they want to follow your content and learn more about this?

Darci Smith: Yes. Thank you for asking every platform. TikTok, Instagram is where I live is career coach darci. And it's Darci with an i.

Katie: Thank you so much for being here.

Darci Smith: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Katie: So Darci's wonderful. You are probably aware if you've gone through the job application process before that the recruiter will ask you for a ballpark number very early on. And this is to make sure that your expectations for the role's compensation are on the same planet as what they can actually offer you so that they don't waste your time and vice versa. Now, I know traditional advice is to not give an answer or to give like a shirky roundabout answer. But I'm not sure I agree with that for two reasons. The first is that let's say you're only willing to leave your current company for $70,000 or more, but you would be thrilled with $80,000. If you give them the range of $75,000 to $85,000, always pad, but their cap is $60,000. You don't want to go through that interview process. If you are just a little bit over what they can offer you, they're going to tell you.

Katie: But I went through a screening process call once where I told them I was expecting something in the range of $120,000 to $140,000. And they told me flat out, well, the cap for this position is $95K, but that they would keep me in mind for more senior roles in the future. And if I would've played coy, I would've been majorly pissed off after wasting all the time on the process to learn that the most they could offer me was $20,000 less than I was willing to accept. Now, where I think people say don't give an answer is because of this number two reason and it's that, if the opposite had happens, and this is what people are afraid of, you give them an answer that's way below what they would've offered you anyway. First of all, I have never been held to the number I gave in a screening call.

Katie: If you say $80,000, but then later try to negotiate up to $90,000, nobody's going to think twice about that. At least they shouldn't, but this is where doing your research ahead of time can help you. If you do want to look at Glassdoor, go for it or you can go based on what you actually want. I know, novel concept. If you make $60K, but you'd be pumped about $85K, ask for $85K. At that point, it's unlikely that you'd be able to justify something much higher if your current market rate is at all accurate, but at least you're settling at a floor that you would still be thrilled with. And that's the point. Again, I know this isn't traditional advice, but in my experience, throwing out numbers that actually excited me has never once backfired and has actually saved me time and trouble before. So now that you know what's worked for me, let's talk to someone who has some insight about how money mindset can impact our income and this process.

Miranda Martin: Hi, I'm Miranda Martin. I'm the founder and CEO of Miranda Money Coach.

Katie: Miranda, thank you so much for being here. As a coach I know that it's your or job to work with people's psyches a lot of the time. And when it comes to money specifically and asking for more money, there are a lot of hangups that can come into play for people around worthiness. So how does money mindset impact negotiation skills?

Miranda Martin: It impacts negotiation skills in a number of ways. I will say that I define money mindset as the way you think and feel about money. And as we know with negotiations, they tend to be very uncomfortable. Very few people love entering into new negotiations, especially with something like your salary. So because of that with money mindset, if you can pinpoint, if you have a negative or positive one, and if you can work to having more confidence with how you feel and manage your money, it will come across in the negotiations that you pursue because you'll both have higher standards for yourself with the outcome that you want from the negotiation and the confidence will shine through as well.

Katie: It's really fascinating that you said the confidence around managing your money and it brings up for me, this idea of, it doesn't seem like the way that you manage money and handle it outside of your job or outside of a negotiation would really impact the way that you feel going into one. But I love that you phrased it that way. So in that light can someone's money mindset actually impact their income?

Miranda Martin: It absolutely impacts their income. I think it impacts most people's income way more than you realize because with money mindset, since it's emotional, since a lot of it is subconscious, our money story started in childhood. And so what we saw around us impacts our current income and what we are seeking out as adults in our careers. And it can also make you fear, let's say, scarcity mindset's really common for money in general.

Miranda Martin: So if you fear that there isn't enough money for you, but you really want this job, you're going to go for a lower salary amount because you think that's all that's available when in truth, 9 times out of 10, the company does have the reasonable amount of money a little bit of market average, or at least at market average. So you don't have to settle for less. Money mindset can also impact income because you're less open to seeing opportunities. If you fear making more money, if you set a glass ceiling for self, you are a lot less likely to see new opportunities both within your current company and if you're throwing your resume out there for new potential negotiations.

Katie: It's really interesting for me personally, in this type of experience, I had been making in that $50,000 to $80,000 range pretty consistently for a few years, just in that small window there between, I don't know, yeah, high $50s, high $70s and I ended up getting a contractor role that paid, I think $103,000. And I had a friend that said to me, this data scientist that was older, he was like, you're never going to make under six figures again. And I was like, how can you be so confident about that? And he's like, because now you know that you can, and it was interesting because my experience level between the two jobs, the one that was paying $75,000 and the one that was paying $103,000 didn't really change that much from day to day. I wasn't suddenly way more experienced because I was making that much more money.

Katie: But then in the next negotiation that I went into, I was very confident about asking for a lot more than $103,000 and I got it. And I don't think that if I hadn't had that bridge job that broke that mental barrier of six figures, I don't think I would've been confident about asking for more than that. So what are some ways that if somebody is going into a negotiation, they're feeling nervous about it, they're feeling uncomfortable, what are some ways to prepare mentally for a big salary negotiation or negotiation of any kind?

Miranda Martin: That's a great story, I will say. It'll tie back into the question you just asked. Those glass ceilings that we create for ourselves once it's broken, you don't have to go back under it and there will be constant steps. I would assume for you now that you've broken through the six figures and you went even higher, it'll be that much easier next time as well. Because you will keep realizing you can make a little bit more money and a little bit more money. With your question about how you can prepare for a negotiation. First thing you should do is check in with your money mindset. I know for some people it's a little off putting, you can think, okay, well I'm not really that emotional about money, but everybody is. And so the first thing you could do is just ask yourself what is my first thought, what is my first feeling when I hear the word money?

Miranda Martin: And then what about the word, finances? How do you think and feel about that? And once you pinpoint some of the common emotions and I will say one of the most common is shame and the second would be fear. When you pinpoint whatever it is that it is for you, you can find a few key money mindset exercises to do, to really start to tweak the way you think and feel about money.

Miranda Martin: And I would recommend doing that right before you do go on if you're job hunting, if you are entering into a negotiation, you could even do it that afternoon before, but do something so that you acknowledge the emotions and that you can tweak your perspective on everything. So I would recommend doing that. Money mindset can also impact a salary negotiation because in this, ties back into what I said earlier, you are less aware of what is available out there. So by being really aware of your emotions, your glass ceilings with income, that will help you in your research process, really understand what is realistic and what's a little bit above realistic for you to shoot for with your next negotiation.

Katie: I love it. Anything else that you would want people to be aware of, that you want listeners to know?

Miranda Martin: I would say that with money mindset, because it's something it can be so uncomfortable to work through, it's a constant process, but just a few quick exercises and you can just Google money mindset exercises, and you'll find a few that'll work for you. You can really reset your money mindset in a matter of days, it can be done very quickly. And by taking a little bit of time to work through those uncomfortable emotions, you will see such a potential increase with your career opportunities and with your salary.

Katie: Amazing. Miranda, thank you so much for being here.

Miranda Martin: Thank you, Katie. Appreciate being on.

Katie: All right you all, thanks for listening. That is all for this week. I will see you next week same time, same place on the Money with Katie Show. Our show is a production of Morning Brew and is produced by Nick Torres and me. Alan Haburchak is the director of audio at Morning Brew. And Sarah Singer is our VP of multimedia. Sam cat is our executive chaos agent knocking my phone off the table and trying to climb onto the microphone during our recordings and Bean dog is our chief of woof letting us know when the UPS man comes to the door during our recording sessions. At one point while we were recording, he was licking all the butter off of this muffin sitting next to me. And I'm just like reading the script like, fuck, now I can't eat that muffin because he just, oh my dang kitty cat.